There are many truths to Christopher Nolan’s persona and cinema that coexist simultaneously, and he is as layered a mind as the stories he tells

Christopher Nolan is an avid consumer of fine Earl Grey tea. Christopher Nolan was relishing a very clearly non-Earl Grey chai with bun maska in Mumbai. Christopher Nolan’s films are so cerebral that they are interpreted and decoded and deciphered and analysed. Christopher Nolan’s film collections are as often bigger than those of the massiest, most dumbed-down cinema ever made.There are many truths to Nolan’s persona and cinema that coexist simultaneously, and he is as layered a mind as the stories he tells.And perhaps, The Odyssey is as layered a tale as he has ever told.There is something about grand tales that delve into ethics, morality, philosophy and truths that transcend the barriers of both time and culture. It is on that account, perhaps, that our conversation in Mumbai with Nolan did not feel very ‘foreign’. The emphasis he places on the Greek concept of Xenia, of the thought that one should be respectful even to a humble beggar who comes at your door since he may be a god walking the earth in disguise, reminds one of Tulsidas’ ‘Na jaane kis vesh mein Narayan mil jaye’. The focus in his story on how a guest should be treated reminds us that ‘atithi devo bhava’ existed as a sacred thought across the world long before it became a tourism punchline. The stories of characters living on earth whose parents are gods, or at least non-human, reminds us of so many characters in the Mahabharata. The remorse that Nolan’s primary protagonist suffers even after engineering a famous victory reminds us of the name behind the Indian national emblem – how Asoka the Great’s remorse post-Kalinga shaped what he, and the land he ruled, have stood for a very, very long time.“After years of war, no one could stand between my men and home” – when I hear Odysseus saying this, it made me think of another great Greek story, but one that is tied to India. Alexander The Great regarded Achilles as a role model. He carried a copy of the Iliad with him wherever he travelled. And some 850 years after Troy, Alexander’s troops, on the borders of India, rebelled and refused to go any further, and said, you know, like, nobody can come between us and home now.So, this universalness of the longing of a soldier to return home which cuts across cultures and across time, the diminishing thrill of conquest, these emotional contradictions of them both as brutal hardened warriors, and as sentimental individuals just wanting to finally get back home – as a filmmaker, how do you look at the psychology of such men, given that they are so conflicted in the two extremes?I think it’s one of the eternal human contradictions. Love and war, essentially, that fuel drama and has fueled literature for thousands and thousands of years. I mean, the Odyssey is 3,000 years old, and I think it taps into very human truths.I think that in my adaptation, I feel that – without going into spoilers, people haven’t seen it – but I think the character of Circe is given some things to say about that, and about that contradiction, that I think is very relevant to the overall story, because there is that contradiction of the qualities that make a good soldier.Loyalty is one of them, loyalty and obedience and bravery and so forth, all these sorts of positive qualities – but aimed at this incredibly negative end, which is to inflict harm on somebody, to bring death and destruction, and so forth.And that contradiction, I think, is one of the most interesting and evocative things that storytelling can deal with.When I came to adapt the Odyssey, I found that that contradiction underlies everything really in the poem. And so, in different ways, I’ve tried to bring that out in the film, including the feel of the experience of the audience as well, in terms of what the audience’s relationship is with the adventure of the piece, but then also the gravity of the seriousness of war, of death, of destruction, all these things that are happening... But I think it’s an eternal conflict that fuels drama in a very compelling way.

‘The Odyssey is 3,000 years old, and I think it taps into very human truths’

Is post-violence remorse the sign of an evolved soul, in your view, as opposed to people who relish it and enjoy it? I mean, I think – even more complicated than that – I think within the same individual, there can be the element of remorse, there can (also) be element of inappropriate enjoyment of violence. Different attitudes towards violence at different times can exist within the same individual. And I think that’s one of the things that we’re dealing with, with the character of Odysseus, for example. One of the reasons I wanted Matt Damon to play the part is, Matt, I mean, he’s a brilliant actor, that sort of goes without saying, but for me, even more than that, I wanted to retain the complexities and contradictions of the character of Odysseus, which are not the traditional characteristics of the hero of an epic. And Matt is able to open that to the audience and bring the audience in, so you can retain those contradictions and complexities, but he can make you feel that you’re seeing the world through his eyes and you’re experiencing that with him. And I think part of that is the idea of feeling grounded ethically in a character’s worldview, and then having that challenge, and especially retroactive, looking back at things you’ve already seen in the story, and maybe look at them in a slightly different way at the end of the film than we did at the beginning of the film. And that’s the kind of storytelling I very much enjoy.

Love and war, essentially, that fuel drama and has fueled literature for thousands and thousands of years: Nolan

You spoke about two things which intrigued me greatly. You talked about the epic being from a time when people saw divinity in everything — the thunder, the water, everything was from the gods. And you said that so many epics and modern stories come from the desire for us to believe that gods could walk amongst us. And in the story, you depict entities who are mortals on earth, but who are children of gods. These concepts are very familiar in Indian mythology and culture; the Mahabharata has so many stories of that nature. So my question is, in your filmmaking, the challenge or the goal often is to make the characters as ‘human’ and relatable as possible. But when you’re dealing with a god, there is no template. How do you approach the character of a god or a half god? How do you bring tears to his or her eyes? Well, for me, you know, the film has something of a contradiction in this sense, because I have embraced the fantastical elements of the story, the creatures, for example, the cyclopses in the film, those things… But when it came to the gods and the portrayal of the gods, what I became interested in was something that you find in the poem. It’s a Greek concept known as Xenia. In the film, we refer to it as Zeus’s law, very specifically, and it’s essentially the golden rule. It’s the idea that we have to treat each other with mutual respect.

And the theological underpinning in that Bronze Age is you may look like a humble beggar, but you might be a god in disguise. And so, I have to treat you the way I would want to be treated. In the modern world, we don’t necessarily have that theological underpinning, but of course, what I came to realize is it’s so essential for the story that modern civilization is founded on exactly the same principle, mutual respect. But the fact that it’s a strong theological underpinning in the Bronze Age led me to want to portray the gods in the way that those people might have experienced them, through nature, through the evidence of the gods, that the sun rises in the morning, that the wind blows, that the tides come in. That’s all evidence of divinity. That’s evidence of gods. And people walking amongst them may also be gods in disguise. They may be seeing gods in men. And I wanted to keep to that view of the gods, essentially, rather than portraying them as separate, in their own world, up on Mount Olympus or whatever, talking and so forth, as sometimes has been the case in older films.

‘Matt is able to open that to the audience and bring the audience in’

I really wanted to stay within that mindset of the characters. I wanted to give it, because I think that idea of Xenia, that idea of Zeus’s law, by the end of the film, you realize how important that is. And I felt like portraying the gods in that way would make that more obvious.Any Indian epic that would appeal to you tomorrow as a filmmaker, as a story?I mean, I’m always interested in any great story. And I know that Indian culture is full of incredible great stories. But as far as the specifics of what attracts me to a project, I don’t know. I mean, there are commonalities in the Odyssey with, as you say, and the Mahabharata. But I have certainly enjoyed dealing in a mythological landscape, yes.What is the finest work that you have seen of Indian cinema, in any space, directing, acting, music? Has anything held you? I mean, I came very late to Satyajit Ray, Pather Panchali. It’s a masterpiece. It’s as good a film as I’ve ever seen. And I was, I did not realize, I think, how… obviously I’d heard of Ray, but some years ago, right before I came to India the first time, I watched that film for the first time, and it’s as fine a film as I’ve ever seen. He was an absolutely extraordinary filmmaker.

“It’s as good a film as I’ve ever seen,” says Nolan about Satyajit Ray’s Pather Panchali

The moral centre that you wrote for Matt Damon’s character, like you explained, you know, that whole transition of hard and soft, conflicted, contradiction-filled – how different is that moral centre different from your own personal moral centre? (Pauses) I think that’s a very tough question for this kind of interview! (laughs) I mean, we’re all complicated… we’re all complicated the way that Odysseus is complicated… (but) I do not think the word that is most often applied to Odysseus, I don’t think people would necessarily apply that to me. And that word is wily. And, you know, it’s that idea of the trickster or somebody who’s always got – he’s hiding his motive, and has a sort of ulterior motive. I don’t think, I don’t think I share that.

‘We’re all complicated the way that Odysseus is complicated’

But even there, by the end of the story, you didn’t make him feel very proud of that. You made him go back and wonder whether it was the right thing to do. Well, possibly because that’s how I would feel. This is… (laughs) Now I feel like I’m on the psychoanalyst couch!But he’s not an apologetically wily character, is he? In your telling of it. He’s like somebody who’s been there and then is not so proud of it. Yeah, I think so. But I also think that, you see, he’s aware of it, in a way, the whole film. But you still see him enjoying his intelligence and enjoying his way of working around things. And so it’s that thing of somebody who knows what they should be doing and still perhaps isn’t doing it. And, you know, we all share that. (And as we wrap it up there, Nolan has a concluding take with a laugh: ‘That’s some tough questions!’ )